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      Gamereactor
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      Ian Livingstone on talent, funding, and narrative at Gamelab Tenerife

      Legendary writer and entrepreneur Sir Ian Livingstone received a Knighthood for his contribution to video games earlier this year, and in this tropical interview we discuss both that honour, the challenges the European industry is facing, and using gaming in education for children, among other things.

      Audio transcription

      "We are at Gamelab in Tenerife. You know, my surname has a knight to it, but it's not as sonorous as being talking to you, who were knighted at the beginning of this year. So thank you so much for joining us once again. How do you feel about that honour yourself?
      I'm obviously very proud and delighted, but I think it's long overdue for the industry in general. It's a Great Bridge success story. It contributes €8 billion to UK PLC in an industry that's worth $200 billion a year. So it's great to see recognition, and of course I'm very happy it's me."

      "Congratulations. So you've been an industry legend, in our opinion of course. You've been an executive, and you've been part of the creative process, and you've been part of both studios, small and big. So behind the scenes, you've been talking about how to improve European industry, what are the challenges that it's facing. So what did you share, what did you suggest that you can share with us from that perspective, from your experience?
      Well, the industry relies totally on access to talent and access to funding. And it creates very valuable intellectual property. And some of the studios sadly have to sell their IP in return for project finance so they can survive. So I think it's important that they as a business are able to get inward investment into their companies to give them the runway and hire the best talent so they don't have to sell out too soon. And from a talent point of view, software engineers, artists and animators are in high demand, not just in the game industry but every industry in particular. But, you know, the game industry is lots of fun and people who play games want to make games. So at least we have that advantage. But the message to governments I always say is, you know, be supportive of the game industry."

      "It's a future facing, it's high tech, high skills, intellectual property creating, export focused, it's regional, doesn't have to be in London or Madrid to be successful. And, you know, during the pandemic, nobody had to be furloughed because it's created digitally and it's consumed digitally. So this is a real, ticks all the right boxes for the future digital industries and the creative economy. What we do lack as an industry is celebrities, film, music, TV, have known household stars. So beyond the game industry, nobody knows who those people are. So whilst you might have a successful industry in your country, nobody knows who they are. Because everyone assumes the games are made in the USA or in China or Japan. So I think it's important that those perceptions change through the media, the size of the industry, the cultural, the social and economic impact that it's having."

      "You know, it's the largest entertainment industry in the world. It's bigger than music and film combined. And so there's an awful lot of success there. So my message is to parents, this is a great career choice for your children. To investors, this is a great investment opportunity if you want to have great rates of return on your investment."

      "There's two very interesting things that I wanted to ask you about. You mentioned several roles in the industry, but not writing and you yourself are a writer. So what can you tell us about, you know, how you see writers evolving? The writing in video games, we've seen pretty crazy things, such as really a lot of branching narrative games and also even procedural generated stories. So what do you see this going and what sort of inspired you as of later? What do you see interesting?
      Well, as you point out, I've written a lot of interactive books myself, fighting fantasy books in which you are the hero and make all the choices and go on these fantastic journeys in medieval worlds of monsters and magic. And that is a compelling thing in itself."

      "It gives children agency of control. It's all about them making the choices. So I realized that storytelling was really important in games terms. And now, because the games are able to afford story. In the early days, of course, there was no capacity in the PCs or the early consoles to allow anything other than simple gameplay. So there's no music, the graphics were very simple, there was no room for story. But now, as a convergent entertainment medium, we can have compelling storylines. So it's not just the designer or the programmer writing the stories, you're having professional storytellers there. And that makes the proposition that more interesting, which is great to see."

      "And the other thing that you mentioned are children. And I remember, I think it was 2016 and we were talking about development, etc. You said that governments weren't using video games as a tool for education as much as they should. So have you seen a development in that regard? Or is there any way that you have discussed behind the scenes that this can happen more often?
      Well, I've opened my own school in the UK, in Bournemouth, Livingstone Academy, Bournemouth."

      "And it's not a school where children are playing games all day, but they're using principles of game-based learning to get that greater engagement with children. So it's contextualizing, using games as a contextual hub for understanding. And if you do play a game, by the way, think about all the positives of playing it. Problem-solving, you cannot get through a game without problem-solving."

      "You learn intuitively, you can fail in a safe environment, you're not punished for making a mistake. Games like Minecraft or digital Lego, children can learn by doing, by applying the heat of a furnace to silica sand, they can make glass and put it in their environment.
      And they won't forget that because they're doing it for themselves. Games like, say, Rollercoaster Tycoon, it's a management simulation. The physics of building the rides, the staffing levels required to run the rides and the economy of pricing those rides. And if you do it right, you succeed, and if you don't do it right at first, you tweak the parameters so everyone becomes a winner over time. Whereas in an exam in schools, some people are judged as a success and others as a failure. Why would you want to call people a failure just because they don't do it the first time? Whereas in a game, everyone can be a winner. And games are used for simulating operations for surgeons or for flight simulations for pilots. These are games, it's just that they're not scoring games. So games are everywhere. And you can see now how brands are trying to get more engagement through with the consumers because they know the stickiness of games. But getting back to the education principle, even if their children are playing games, it makes them engaged, they respond quickly to problems and they react to those problems. So these are life skills for in the workplace. But the meta skills of all the things I said about problem solving, critical thinking, creativity can all be arrived by applying principles of game-based learning to projects in school."

      "So my school focuses on digital creativity, a good arts education, working in teams because that's like the workplace, and working with industry to contextualize their learning.
      Education, that sounds really nice. Another thing that got you worried back then when we talked was, of course, Brexit. You thought that it was sad. And of course, some years have passed. So looking back at what was happening and already happened, I think, how do you feel about that? How do you think this is going to change the video game industry in the UK?
      Well, clearly Brexit has caused quite a lot of problems in multiple ways. But I don't think it's affected the games industry as much as people fear because since the pandemic, people got used to remote working practices. And of course, you can hire the services of anybody anywhere in the world because it's digital creativity. So the whole work model has changed enormously. And ironically, has overcome the problems of Brexit by being able to use people from all over the world in teams. So you'll have a central resource, perhaps working in a studio, but with lots of people feeding in, working remotely, which is great."

      "Yeah, look in the silver line of what happened, right? Closing one, we've been talking with Peter Molyneux before, and he says he beats you in board games, but that we have to be careful because you can stab us in the back.
      Well, I think if I brought the Games Night newsletter here, which I write every week after we've played, whilst Peter might be winning this year, because I missed some of the meetings because I was in hospital getting a new hip. For the past three years, I think you'll see my name is on the cup as a champion. And I've won about half of the championships since we first began in the 1980s. So Peter was obviously talking to you without thinking you might ask me the same question."

      "Yeah, the time span has been different, right? He meant like the last few wins, right?
      Yeah, he's winning this year. Yeah, I have to admit that. But I'm the current champion.
      Thank you so much for joining us, Ian Livingstone. Again, congratulations on being knighted and it's been lovely to meet you again."

      "Thank you very much."

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