Rebel Moon - Part Two: The Scargiver

Film Frenzy: Episode 11 - Where does Zack Snyder go following the debut of Rebel Moon 2?

With another disastrous Rebel Moon film under his belt, we discuss what's next for the famed director, whether we want more Rebel Moon, and if there are any parts of The Scargiver that give us hope for the future.

Audio transcription

"Hello everyone and welcome back to what I think is actually our twelfth episode, no eleventh episode, twelfth maybe, not sure, a new episode of Film Frenzy, it's just me and Alex today, Mag isn't here today but you know."

"Yeah, another birthday, it's like the Queen I think, he gets, or the King, does the King get two birthdays now? You're testing my knowledge of royalty here.
I know you're a big fan. I am a big royalist, yeah. I've got a Queen Elizabeth tattooed on my back, I won't show you here but it's there. But no, that's not what we're talking about today, we're not here to talk about royalty, unless you count him as cinema royalty, which some of you might, judging by the reactions you get to his films."

"Today we're staying topical, we're talking about Zack Snyder today, as of recording this Rebel Moon part two, The Scargiver, has been out for about, I don't know, five days, six days on Netflix, so you know, people have had their chance to watch it, it's not just the critic reviews nowadays, which are usually harsher than audience reviews anyway, but it, you know, the audience have had a chance to watch this film and share their opinions of it, and yeah, it does sort of beg some questions as to what's next for old Zack really, I don't know, you, we've talked about Rebel Moon before, I think we're both sort of in the mindset that it's not like a truly disaster of a film franchise, but it's neither his best work."

So, yeah, go on Alex.
We talked about it on the pod a little bit, because I think I'd seen it, but it wasn't out yet, have you seen it?
I watched it over the weekend, yeah, it was, uh."

"What did you think?
I struggled to get through it, like the first one I just really just, I think I got about an hour through and I was like, you know what, I'll pick up on this tomorrow now, I'm happy to just take a break, which to me is usually not a sign of a good movie, although granted I think that's a, it's a very sort of topical situation though, because there's some movies that are really heavy, like I watched Anatomy of a Fool recently, and I didn't do that in one sitting, not because I thought it was a bad film, but because it's a, it's a film that is largely spoken in French, and it's quite a heavy film, you know, lots of lore and murder and stuff like that, and it's not exactly like a Rebel Moon where you sit down, yeah, with Messi the dog, but Rebel Moon is a, it's about as dumb action as you can get, and you should be able to sit through that in one sitting really, but I couldn't do it, I couldn't get myself through it, so I don't know, I've never been like a Snyder head, so I'm less like inclined to let him off for some of his bad films, should we say?
Is that, is it fair to say that some people are a little bit more lenient to Zack Snyder than they should be?
Yeah, which is weird, because I don't think he's ever like, it's weird that he keep like, if this was, he must have some real dirt on someone in Hollywood, is what I think, because if this was anyone else, like M. Night Shyamalan did After Earth, and he's had some good movies since then, but really, he's not got that same like, cult following, you know, he did Avatar, and then he did After Earth, and then everyone was like, he's washed, he's absolutely washed, he's cooked, he's, there's no, there's nothing that he can do that'll really draw eyes anymore, and then he did like, Old, the piece that makes you old, and the one with David Teaster, where they're like, cabin in, yeah."

"It's called Cabin in the Woods, which is the one that everyone seems to think it's called Cabin in the Woods, because there's too many cabin films these days.
It's not a cabin in the woods, or what you want to call it, but, like, you know, I don't see that sort of similar following, you get that following around Snyder with people who actually make good films, like, there's a lot of people who love, you know, like, Scorsese or Tarantino, or something like that, and they'll defend those people to the hilt, because they make widely regarded good movies, whereas there's a lot of people who are just like, no, Snyder's a genius, and you're a fool if you don't see that."

"I think he should be, like, Michael Bay-ified, like, yeah, he makes dumb stuff, but it can be enjoyable, some of it isn't, but it can be.
I don't, I find it, I find Zack Snyder a weird one, because he, look, he is like a lot of other action directors, in that he is, he shows promise in certain things, like, you know, he, his, the way that he sets up, sort of, action scenes, and his cinematography, and his set design, it's all really good, and no one can knock that, but there's so many other directors that are also very good at that, so it's not like he stands out in that."

"The thing that Zack Snyder, that makes Zack Snyder, Zack Snyder, is slow motion, and, you know, the thing about slow motion, to me, right, he always says, well, we've seen him say it in recent, sort of, interviews and stuff, that the reason he uses it a lot is because it's awesome, which, to me, is, like, yeah, which, to me, is, like, the equivalent of a 40-year-old man with a poster of a Lamborghini Countach on his wall, saying, yeah, they're so badass, man, it's like, well, maybe, but, like, you know, you're an adult now, like, grow up, like, it's cool occasionally, but, like, you watch Rowan, part two, and he has, like, when they're collecting the grain, and he slow motions all of it, it's like, god, it's the most boring part of the movie, and you're trying to make it look epic, like, what are we doing?
There's something there that just doesn't line up to me, I don't know, maybe I'm being a bit harsh on Zach for it, but I just, I'm sick of slow motion."

"I find him quite endearing, I do find him endearing, because he genuinely has, like, a love of, like, film and movies, and a love of these characters, and he loves the world that he's built for Rebel Moon, but I think it's, like, if you had, like, a D&D campaign or something like that, and the guy who made it has spent, like, years building this world, and then he, like, shows it off to the players, or whatever, and they don't give a rat's, because they've not been involved in making the world, like, you know, Snyder introduces people like Belisarius, for example, it's like, I don't think he's intimidating at all, he's a guy who clearly looks like a dude who's in, like, a stage play, with the fake beard, and the hair, and the fact that he's younger than Sophia Boutella, even though he's playing her dad, these are decisions that you would just sort of think about at the very start, but I think he's gone past that point so far, that while we're at the start, Zack Snyder is in movie eight in his head, you know, he's like, just you wait, guys, this grain stuff, it doesn't mean anything, it just, like, this is just the step to the next bit, and it's like, okay, Zack, but you've got to remember that we, we don't know what's going on next, this isn't like a already finished book series, where we can go, you know, it's not like Dune, where if you're like, oh, Dune part one and two didn't hit it for me, I want, but I want to see what's next, you can go read it. Don't, don't, don't go and read Dune, watch the films, well, I mean, if you're gonna read Dune, read the first one, and then perhaps leave it, but that's an isolated thing. Read Messiah, Messiah's, Messiah's whack, I love Messiah, I love them because they're so weird, like, but no, actually, actually, I just wanted to say, you, you mentioned there about how, like, Zack sort of, he gets in this phase where clearly he's like, thinking too far ahead, and you can't visualize, yeah, you can't visualize that as a viewer, he's, he's beyond us, there's a prime example of that in Rebel Moon, where in the first movie, you meet that character, and he's training the griffin, you're like, what the fuck, it's a sci-fi movie, where's this griffin come from? And you're like, this doesn't make any sense, and then you get to the second movie, and it's like, no, he lived in a world where griffins existed, and they were there, and fighting. A Victorian world that used griffins as mounds. It's awesome, it's awesome, but you're like, I didn't know that, so it just felt weird to me in the first movie, and now you're barely showing this world, but it's fallen to pieces, I don't get to any, like, character development, and it's, it's just, like, the problem with Rebel Moon isn't the world, it's, isn't the world building that he's made, isn't the idea that he's come up with, it's just how he structures it all, and it's just, like, don't, like, I, I have gripes with the slow motion stuff, and I think he uses it way too much, right, and I don't, I don't think he uses it right either, like, Michael Bay, I think, does slow motion really well. I'd say what you want about Michael Bay, right, but I think that he does incorporate slow motion, yeah, into his films quite well, but, like, Snyder's use of slow motion, to me, is just sort of, but actually, he used to do a lot of music videos, didn't he? He used to direct a lot of music videos in the past, Zack Snyder did, and I think that's where we see a lot of the slow motion is, comes from, because, yeah, like, you know, slow motion in music videos kind of works, because it's, like, three and a half minutes long, but in a movie, when you've got, like, if we, if we put all of Rebel Moon at full speed, it's probably an hour and 20 minutes long, but, yeah, it should have been really, yeah, probably, probably be a tight film, yeah, but, um, but no, yeah, I think he just, it's, like, it's, like, he needs someone there with him to just, again, rein him in a little bit, because I don't think he has that, I don't know how he does it when he makes these films, and what processes he goes through, but, it seems like everyone trusts him a lot, like, you speak to, like, or you see the interviews with, like, Ed Screen, who plays Admiral Noble, who I think is probably the best character in the entire franchise so far, because even though he's got that stupid little Peaky Blinders haircut, he comes across really well as someone who's, like, really hammy, but believes it, like, he takes himself seriously in a way that sort of goes beyond the character to where you're like, okay, I understand this performance is actually quite, you know, it's quite strong, even though it's not got, like, layers or anything like that, but it's very strong in terms of making you believe who this character is and want to see them go down by the end in the villain, but he will talk about how much he just trusts the Snyder process, the Snyder method. It's a bit like, have you ever seen Always Sunny, with, like, the Dennis system? Yeah, I feel like Snyder has his own Snyder system, but it just keeps creating bombs, but then again, so many people saw it, what was it, like, 90 million, he claims, saw Rebel Moon Part One. You know what, right, I'm gonna say it, right, as much as I don't think the Rebel Moon films have been very good so far, I want to see him finish Rebel Moon, like, if it takes another six films, I want to see him do it, and I want to see the Rotten Tomatoes score get just worse each time, I just want to see it crash. I don't want to see this franchise end yet, I genuinely don't, I think that's the only thing, is this madman, this absolute madman, has somehow made me ready for another, like, and I know they're bad, and they're not even, like, laughably bad in the same way that, like, yeah, give me more, give me more, I want it. It's like, I don't really want it, but I don't want you to quit either, because there is something there, that's the worst part, is that when you see, like, the cutaways to, like, this really cool Victorian-era sci-fi planet, where they have Griffins as part of their, like, military and their, like, transportation or whatever, you're like, cool, more of that please, Zach, and he goes, no, I don't want to, and then you go, why, you know, let's go back to the bit where they use grain as, like, a resource to protect it. Who gives a toss? Who genuinely is like, I need my grain, dude, I need, I'm graining out over here, like, is it, because the thing is, it's not even explained that well, like, Dune, right, he who controls the spice controls the galaxy, because spice is immediately told to you is the most important thing, because it makes humans live longer, and it gives them access to space travel really easily. Grain is not ever, sort of, seen as important, because it's just, couldn't you get that from anywhere? If there was, like, if they were, like, okay, Veldt is really special, because it's one of the few planets left in the galaxy that hasn't been, like, colonized to death by the mother world, and it can actually produce grain for us, and we secretly have a massive food shortage, that's really interesting, because that then creates a lot of, like, political backlash about food, which you just take us for granted in a lot of society anyway, so it would be really, really interesting, and instead, they're like, no, we need grain, we're not going to tell you why we need grain, there's a long journey back, we won't need it if we just decide to go now, but we might need it. It's like, well, what are you, what the, what the hell are we talking about? Why, why can't you just disable their cannons or something, so that they can't bomb the village? Why does it matter that the grain is stockpiled? You know, I also love, as well, how the farm that it's, like, the majority of the film takes part and plays on, it's like an Amish community, like, it's like a space thing, they got, they got ships everywhere, and all these different things, and they've got, like, yeah, they're, like, fighting with, like, like, sci-fi blaster guns and stuff, yet they still harvest the grain with the scythe, not, not even, like, they don't even have, like, a horse to pull something, they don't even have, like, an old-fashioned mechanical, no, they do have those, they do have those weird horses, yeah, but they don't use it when they're harvesting the grain, do they? They just use the scythe, and then they use the little, the little things, um, the little sieves to think, it's like, it's baffling that it's, it's the little kind of details that you pick up on, you're like, why, why is this a thing? Why did he go with this direction instead of another one? But either way, I don't know, I'd like to see, I'm looking forward to more Rebel Mood, I don't know what form it's going to be, if it'll ever get made, like, I'm assuming, some details are really good, though, like, the, the, the fact that the, the lightsabers can't be held by a normal hand, because they'll burn you, was really interesting, and the, this, the political side of the mother world, where it's, like, Roman Senate-esque, you know, is really interesting, and I'd like to have seen more of that, and there's just things where I'm, like, give us more of that, please, Zach, and he says, no, here's more grain, and I don't want any more grain, you know, I don't know where he goes from here, though, because, again, you know, it's the thing about, the thing about Netflix, right, is that they don't actually really care, they don't give a toss whether it's a good or a bad film, as long as it draws in viewers, they're happy, right, so, like, Rebel Mood, we might, again, everyone brings up the Rotten Tomatoes score of 15% critics, which, again, it's kind of like, you got to take it or leave it with that, because Rotten Tomatoes is weird, it doesn't mean, like, everyone is saying, like, you know, on average, it's scoring 1.5 out of 10 stars or something like that, like, what they mean is that, like, 15% of the reviews are inherently good reviews, yeah, which are, like, six out of ten or above, so, you know, for a movie, like, you could say that, on average, it's scoring four, which isn't a good score, but, like, two stars for a shitty action film is still pretty bang average, really, when you look at the state of film and cinema, and the audience score for part two is at 52%, which is considerably higher than the critics' score, even if it is slightly down from part one, which is called... It's weird that people like part one more than part two."

"Yeah, yeah, I thought part one was way much worse, in my eyes. I thought, again, I found both quite tedious to watch, but part one was significantly harder. Part one's insufferable. But, no, again, like, we'll find out, most likely, in the next couple of weeks, really, whether it's done enough for Netflix to greenlight a third one. I don't think... These two movies, from what I'm saying, were made, sort of, back to back, so I don't think they've started work on a third yet, so if they do do a third, it's gonna be a while out. But I... They released them weirdly. Like, it's weird to think, like, apart from your upcoming films of the year, Horizon and American Targa... Both theatrical films, as well. I've never seen... Don't forget that."

"Yeah, both in cinemas. I've never seen films that just released within a few months of each other.
It's really strange. It is baffling, really. And, yeah, I don't know what happens for next. If it does well enough, there'll be a third, most likely, on Netflix. But, again, it all depends on viewers.
Please let it be well enough. I just... I just want to know what happens next. Like, can he save it? Does he have what it takes, as a director, as a creator, to save this franchise? Or is the next film gonna be even worse? Will he listen to anything that people have been saying? Or is he gonna make it, instead of it being 30% slow motion? Are we gonna go up to 60%? Like, what's gonna happen with this third one? What direction does he take, you know? I don't know. But, like, the thing is, is that there is potential there. There is a lot of potential there. You could really, really take it apart. And, like, if you, like, ripped apart the character... Like, the main character, for example, Cora, is a really interesting premise. And there's a bit where, like, just before the final battle, she cuts her hair into, like, the military cut again. And you're like, oh, is she going back to, like, her, like, you know, badass, die-hard ways? It's like, no, she immediately tries to get herself killed by sacrificing herself again. And she's too... The characters are too one-dimensional, I think, because it doesn't ask you to really think about much with Rebel Moon. It's very, sort of, you can brain off as soon as you do it. Whereas, if you watch something like..."

"Like, if we go to the right other end of the spectrum, we watch Shogun. I've been watching Shogun. I've been catching up on Shogun lately. Really, really phenomenal series. You're always wondering what someone's motive is. You're always wondering where they're going to go. You're always wondering who they were, who they are now, and what they want to be after the series is concluded, right? And it really transports you to somewhere else. Whereas, like, Rebel Moon, you don't have any of those, sort of, inklings about what someone may or may not be withholding."

"The first movie has that Charlie Hunnam betrayal, and he just dies, like, instantly. But he doesn't even, like... It's sort of a betrayal that I didn't even see coming, because I didn't care to.
I was never like, I don't know who this guy's going to betray or whatever. I didn't see it coming. I was like, he's probably just going to be, like, the Han Solo of the squad, right? He isn't. He betrays everyone. But he doesn't get anyone killed or anything. He just locks someone up, nearly gets them done in, dies, and then that's it. There's no payoff. There's no interest."

"There's no intrigue in who he was, who he is, why he should be around. That's it. I mean, probably fair play to him, because he got the paycheck and got out.
Yeah, can't knock that.
But, Mike, it's just that thing of, like, if you'd put a bit more care into the characters rather than the worlds that we don't get to see, then there's a lot more interest in a wider audience in wanting to see where they go next. Because it's the same thing of, like, Harry Potter or Star Wars or these other franchises that have, like, really established themselves. They're big because at their heart they have interesting people more than they have bland figures, or at least, like, self-inserts. So everyone can see themselves in Hogwarts, I would say, you know? Everyone can see themselves doing that in Hogwarts as a kid when you're reading it. I don't want to see myself on the belt. It sounds like an awful place, even though it's, like, a nice little, like, farming village. Why would I want to see myself there? Why would I care to go there?
But, yeah, I agree."

"Yeah, exactly. Give us more.
The thing about Zack Snyder as well, though, is that Rebel Moon's just sort of part of what he's doing, right? Like, I'm just looking at his IMDB profile right now where we know, you know, obviously, it just states the things that we know he's working on right now. So he's got the Army of the Dead Las Vegas TV series, which is probably going to be for Netflix judging by Army of the Dead being a Netflix film. So that says it's post-production, so it's supposed to come this year. Okay. I liked Army of the Dead. Dumb fun action. One of his better films, probably ever, really. So..."

"That's really sad. That's really sad. Because I was thinking, like, Army of Ten, yeah, pretty mid-movie, but it's all right. Zombie Tiger's cool.
Yeah, I know it sounds harsh to say probably one of his better films ever, but I don't, like, 300 and Watchmen, the, I can never remember the name of it, the first sort of zombie film he did."

"It's not Night of the Living Dead. Dawn of the Dead.
Yeah, like, you know, those are good films, but there's so much other just trash that he produces that I can't really put it up there. But he seems like a nice guy, which is why it sucks. He seems like such a genuinely decent lad. And now I'm going to say this, and then, like, tomorrow or next week, it's going to be like, Zack Snyder touches assistant inappropriately, and, you know, I'm going to step to him again. But yeah, he's also got another zombie thing in the works as well with Planet of the Dead, most likely. So that's supposedly in development. Another directory left from him. He's set in the same sort of world, I guess, as Army of the Dead and all that, so... And then there's a film called The Fountainhead, which I have no idea what that is. So... I reckon that's going to be a really hard thing."

"Rebel Moon Part 3, The Fountainhead.
Rebel Moon Part 3, The Fountainhead.
That's such a stupid title, but it would probably be it as well.
So we'll have to stay tuned. I don't know. But I think, yeah, I think we're all kind of..."

"Well, I think me and you are in agreement that as bad as Rebel Moon is...
Look, it fits Netflix, right? Because Netflix produces so much trash in the first place that it just feels at home on the platform. Like, if this was going into cinemas, it would probably make like 80 million pounds and it would bomb and we'd never see another one again."

"But on Netflix, it kind of feels fitting, you know? I'm not going to go tell you it's a good film. Yeah. But like, if you're looking for something to watch over the weekend, then Rebel Moon's no... It's really no better than a lot of the other trash that Netflix puts out.
So check it out. See what you think of it. Rebel Moon drinking game."

"Can you... Maybe. Every time a slow-mo takes a shot, you die.
You have to be drinking at every single point the slow motion is active. So there's like 40 minutes worth of drinking involved. Every time there's dialogue that like explains something that's really obvious, you drink, you die."

"But yeah, this is... Yeah, I don't know. We'll stay tuned. We'll talk to Zack Snyder again in the future, most likely. Probably around the time the TV series thing.
Snyder Frenzy. Yeah.
But otherwise, no, this has been episode, I think..."

"11. I think 11 of Film Frenzy. So we'll be back now next week for the next one.
Magnus will be with us, so stay tuned for that.
Is it three or two more weeks until the fated day? The promised day?
For the third part of the Simian season? Yeah, I think it's May 9th for us."

"I've probably done that too wide for the day, so...
9th May, my dad's birthday. Shout out, Kev.
It's the week after the bank holiday, though, that the film comes out. So it'll be the week after the bank holiday week that we'll do the Film Frenzy for the Simian season."

"Conclusion. So stay tuned for that.
I'm going to go try and stay. Me too, I'll be there opening night.
But yeah, this has been episode 11 of Film Frenzy. Alex, always a pleasure.
Camping outside."

"We'll pick this up next week on something. I don't know what, but something else.
So stay tuned for that. Take care, everyone.





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