What goes into pulling a game back from the brink? - Echoes of the End Interview

Audio transcription

"Hello everyone and welcome back to another Gamereactor interview.
Today, you might actually recognise the guests that we have today because me and Halldor, we actually spoke about a year ago now, I want to say, to talk a little bit about Echoes of the End.
So, if you aren't familiar, Halldor is the CEO of Myrkur Games, the developer of Echoes of the End."

"And the reason we're coming back today and talking about it is to sort of, I guess, to recap how things have gone over the past six or so months.
Because it's been a bit of an up and down road, you know, a bit of a bumpy ride, I suppose you could say, Halldor.
So, let's start chronologically, right? Let's talk about the launch and we'll go from there."

"So, obviously, Echoes of the End came out and perhaps it didn't live up to the expectations you were initially laying out for the game.
Or perhaps it didn't quite land in the way that you were looking for.
So, talk me through the situation over at Myrkur Games after the game launched, you know, what you and the team went through.
Give us an insight that maybe people who aren't as familiar about game development, to let them understand what it's like working at a studio when you're trying to get your game back on track in a way."

"Yeah, thank you for that. Happy to dive into those topics.
Just kind of depends on what angle you might want to attack first.
I mean, leading up to the ship of the game, for us, I would say that we, you know, we're obviously shipping our first title as a studio.
And it's a new team around the game, even though we've been working together for some years now."

"So, but as a studio, we're shipping our first title, we're shipping across different platforms and porting to PS5, PS5 Pro, Xbox X and S alongside PC as well.
So, there's a lot to juggle, especially with an ambitious game like us.
You know, it's kind of a double A, double A plus type of game where we're really kind of reaching for the absolute limit of the studio in terms of what we wanted to do."

"While maintaining our kind of linear size as a studio and agility.
And so, there's pros and cons to that, of course.
I mean, the pro is that we can, you know, we're a tight knit team.
We work fast, quick communications, very flat hierarchy."

"The cons, of course, is, you know, we lacked 200 people from the headcount of the AAA studios.
So, I mean, inevitably, you know, you always have hopes of what will happen.
But of course, you know, being our first game, we were very cautiously hopeful, you know, what might happen.
But everything, you know, leading up to launch, I mean, I guess you don't know this unless you're in the shipping side of games."

"But shipping games is really, really tough.
It's very hard and very complex.
And so, you do all the testing.
I mean, I don't think a single developer wants to put out a game that, you know, isn't perfect in their eyes."

"Like, they want it to be ready.
They want it to have their kind of golden stamp on it.
And we certainly, you know, thought that we had something in really good shape as a ship.
But kind of, I would say, two things that hampered us very early on, like during the launch, like first days of launch."

"I would say the first one was the hitching, which we thought we had solved, actually.
We had done internal and external testing with the builds and thought we had, you know, to solve the hitching, to play the games multiple times and capture every single shader that is loaded in the game.
Because that's often what's happening."

"And the other hitching is traversal hitching.
And then there's safe hitching, but I'm not going to get into all of those.
But we had done those run-throughs.
We had, you know, captured what we thought was every shader in the game."

"We had pre-compiled the files and everything.
And as it turned out, you know, when we shipped the game, we had a false positive that it was checked on.
So, we had done all the work, but when it shipped, it was checked off.
So, immediately as we saw it, there was just a, you know, a sinking feeling in our stomach."

"I'm like, oh, God, no.
We got to pass this as quick as we can and recapture all the shaders and get it configured correctly.
So, that was a bit of a rollercoaster for us, for sure.
And we're very thankful for the players to be patient with us on it, especially as a first-time studio."

"The other thing was more qualitative, I would say.
It was just feedback in terms of some of the pacing in the game and some of the combat as well.
You know, we're the type of studio who, you know, we take very seriously what players think of our game.
I mean, ultimately, we're here because we're passionate about games and we're building games for others to experience."

"It's the magic that we all experience playing our own games that we want to create with a new thing for somebody else.
So, initially, our kind of theory with the combat was that we wanted to do a little bit more deliberate combat.
Less, I guess, less paced, less hack and slash, and more kind of deliberate.
And we had been going back and forth probably a year prior to ship on where exactly it was."

"And, you know, we had been doing some testing, you know, limited because we're a small studio, but some testing on it.
With players just at the alpha and beta marks.
And ultimately, it kind of came as a surprise that players wanted, you know, the combat to lean in that way.
But ultimately, we also very much agree with it. We think the game is that much better for it."

"So, you know, throughout the launch, as we, you know, put the game out from living in a bubble for years and years, and then put the game out and we get like this swath of feedback our way, you know, and I commend the team for this.
The immediate mindset for the team, you know, was okay, you know, cancel our vacations. We're putting our heads down."

"We're getting this right and we're getting it right as quickly as we humanly can.
Because it's a sinking feeling like players have feedback and they want something fixed.
And you just put your baby out and there's critique and you just want to fix it.
So the team did just that. And what ensued was two months of relentless work."

"I'm talking around the clock work from the team, listening and reading literally every single article of feedback, every single comment, every single review, every single thing we could find to try and put together a picture of what was the strategic thing we could do in this weeks to answer that feedback and deliver the, because people are saying, you know, it's a great game. I love the game, but there's this and this that detract from it."

"So we didn't want, we wanted to remove those detractors and make sure that this was an overall very compelling experience and people could kind of enjoy the game for what it is.
And we shipped, I wouldn't have said it was possible at the beginning of those two months of work.
And I certainly think our producers would agree, but it's just the spirit of the team that put it in."

"So the paths that we put out was enormous.
And we managed to check off and tackle the vast majority of feedback points that came to the team.
I'm going to leave it there and allow you some questions.
So when this situation happened, obviously it's particularly a current thing to talk about because we see so many developers as of recent putting out their debut projects, perhaps they're not received in the way they expected."

"And all of a sudden the studio's in dire trouble.
I mean, like, you know, the very recent one we're talking about in 2026 is High Guard from Wildlight Entertainment.
So when this situation happened, were there ever any concerns about the future of Mirko Games at all?
Were you guys just very much focused on, you know, getting this patch out, making sure that the game's the way that you originally envisioned it?
Yeah, I mean, we're a single game studio."

"What that means is that we don't work on parallel projects.
We do one thing and the house is always being affected when you're a studio like that.
Especially in an independent studio, it's not like we're, you know, within some group and we can just kind of move on to the next thing already."

"Like we very much kind of stake our future on the products that we make and the games that we put out.
But I would say like, you know, for us, this is the benefit of being a smaller team.
You know, the commercial results that are expected from the AAA games, it's not what we expect from our games.
You know, we are looking to hit a kind of, you know, a select audience of people who enjoy these types of games and introduce something new with this game that they might like and latch on to."

"So, you know, it's not, you're never going to read a headline of like, you know, this game needs to sell X and X millions of copies to recoup.
Like that, you know, we purposely were lean and trying to do it.
And our vision is always to build a sustainable AA studio, like not grow past our ambitions and kind of let things get out of hand."

"So I think that in the end helped us a lot, kind of weather this and get through the other end of this.
And looking back at how everything's unfolded over the past few months, is there any sort of learnings or any key sort of things that you can take away from the experience and say, in the future, we'll do it this way instead?
Or, you know, if there's another studio that's coming up and they came to you for advice, what would you say to them and say, we've experienced this, this is perhaps a better way to do this, for example?
Yeah, for sure. We had a... Do you want the whole book?
No, I mean, look, there's tons of learnings."

"As a studio making their first game, there's so many learnings that you put together and we're going to be incredibly, like, the difference in the team already is huge.
Like even shipping that update and six months prior to that, you're looking at two very, very different teams just because the evolution as we get better at working together, as we get better at communicating, there's so many things that kind of you take forward and helps you be better."

"But specifically around launching a game, I mean, again, with our first game, there was a lot of, like, you know, new waters for us in this area.
And we were going through this for the first time.
I think the, you know, the key lesson, the key difficulty of these games, as you talk about High Guard, is, you know, you can do alphas and betas and public versions of those, especially for multiplayer games, that is more tricky with single player games, because you don't, like, you could maybe open up the first hour or something like that, but it's tricky because you don't want to put the whole game on early access and then be revising it over and over again for a story game, I think."

"So I think the main thing that I took away, at least from kind of how I felt about the entire thing, is just let's make sure that we have the resources to do large scale tests of the game to validate more before we cut out.
And let's be, you know, very, very sure that we catch everything, because we did do the testing, we did do them."

"But as a smaller studio, we could only do them in X scale.
And I think for the next project, for sure, it's going to be much more important to us to build the game with the players in that sense, and have a continuous kind of cycle of feedback throughout, just so we have caught truly everything before the game is live and set up."

"And what do you say, I mean, looking at the way that the video game industry currently is, and it's kind of very much a hit or miss world at the moment, where a game either comes out and it has this immense launch, or it kind of doesn't quite connect with fans."

"Again, it feels like everything is sort of the bullseye, or it misses the board entirely at the moment.
Do you look at your experience, and does it translate to the wider video game development scene?
Or is maybe, you know, the sort of bleak output that maybe fans see on the surface, is that not really actually the way it is in the industry?
How do you currently look at the video game sector?
I think we've had, 2025 was definitely one of the busiest years in games, like ever."

"I feel like, even just recounting the games ago, like, ah, yeah, that tipped in 2025.
It's such a busy year.
So, and I think that was the course of, like, there was a lot of investments during the pandemic, and now we're kind of seeing all those games, you know, they typically have the same cycle, and then they all come out right as that ends."

"But I think overall, like, the hit and miss nature of businesses is, that's going to be more, I think, when it comes to AAA games, just because there is just such investment gone into them.
You're talking 100 plus million euros into a project."

"And in that case, like, for the game to recoup, it has to, just by the numbers, has to do such a high volume, to not only justify, but to make the game a commercial success to the backers behind it, whether that's a publisher or something else."

"And I think that's the benefit.
And why we like AA is because that means that the cliff isn't as high.
It's not nearly as high.
And being an independent studio also means that, you know, we can adjust and we can take things forward in our own way."

"Like, we don't have to kind of, you know, we're not going to get moved to a completely different project or something.
Like, we have time and space to recoup from our mistakes, which is someone might not have greenlit, you know, if we were owned by somebody."

"So that's really, really good for us, I would say, and how we like to operate as a studio.
But, you know, to kind of sum it up, I would say, for indies and AAs, I think that's the strength of that space, is that they're able to take a little bit more risk and they don't have to be as safe when it comes to that because the commercial barrier just isn't as high, which I think is a huge plus."

"Obviously, you're obviously indie funded, so you don't have to experience the sort of pulls and draws that come from AAA, which, you know, as of recent, we've seen this inherent focus on live service and games as a service model and all these games that they come out and they want to be around for the next decade and constantly drawn in players."

"Do you...
We work to... Yes, just to add on, yeah.
We work with a publisher on the game still.
Like, we operate as an independent studio, but, you know, we work with a publisher on the game and we were really grateful for their, you know, believing and backing the studio on the first title."

"That's a big risk, you know, and we're really grateful for their work.
But in the end, like you said, you know, we're an independent studio, you know, once the game's out, that relationship, you know, effectively is concluded, you know, and we've been, you know, there's always something, but at least in terms of like us, you know, the updates they're putting out and everything like that, that's all studio funded."

"So for us that we can just choose to spend resources into the game as a studio, and we plan to continue to do so in 2026 as well.
And talking about that relationship, though, because obviously, again, you've worked with a major publisher."

"Was it Prime Matter that published the game?
Deep Silver.
Deep Silver.
It was originally Prime Matter when it was announced, I believe, wasn't it?
And then you switched over."

"Yeah.
So you've worked with publishers, like major publishers on Echoes of the End.
Looking at the business as a whole, when you look at the sort of big name publishers, have you ever had conversations with them?
And do they ever push like the sort of more games as a service models at all?
Are they still very much geared around single player?
Because I only bring it up because we do tend to see so many of these sort of games as a service live projects making their arrival these days."

"And it does feel like, again, as you say, for the sort of triple A, maybe even double A plus segment, there's less of an inherent focus on the single player side of things.
So what's your sort of take on that whole matter?
I think, like, I definitely think that, you know, we, at least our relationship with the publisher was really good."

"Like I can't speak for their other relationship, because I don't have the insight to them.
But we had a really good relationship when it comes to that.
And they were very much in the same mind as us, that this is a premium single player game, the classic."

"But I do think, you know, we, of course, saw a big push a few years back with live service games and everything was kind of going live service.
There was a point where, you know, single player games were dead, you know."

"And, you know, now we're looking at Requiem and Expedition and whatever.
And obviously it's not.
But I think, you know, it's always difficult to assess.
And sometimes publishers do chase trends."

"That's a sure thing.
But I think as we can see, like single player premium games have been going steady and they keep doing well.
The other weighing factor is that, especially in the AAA department, they just keep getting very, very expensive."

"And once they get very expensive, you're talking like AAA plus type games where it's like ludicrously high budgets.
That, of course, comes with that game has to earn that back.
And that can be hard to achieve when the numbers are very high."

"Absolutely.
And one of the other things, while we're on the topic of buzzwords and trends and whatnot, let's just might as well, let's just coast into these waters and talk about them briefly."

"Again, you're an independent studio.
So you have the ability to make decisions that perhaps might not be as free from other developers that are owned by major publishers that want to push things."

"I'm talking about like, for example, Krafton very recently said they're going to make a very big emphasis to push AI and to have it help their production time pipelines and stuff.
How do you look at AI at Maker Games?
Do you look at it as a way to improve your pipeline to streamline development?
Or is it something you'd rather stay away from?
AI is such a big topic."

"It's hard to say like one thing does X and one thing does Y.
I think clearly we saw Balterskate go through the ringer with this when there was topics on that.
And I think the CEO there put an announcement out that they're just not going to use any generative AI."

"And I think when it comes to, for at least the art, probably I would assume that a team of that scale, they're using stuff like Copilot to write code or whatever.
There's different levels of how AI can be used."

"But I think in the end, you're making the game for the gamers and you have to listen to what, that's our main lesson.
You have to listen to what they have to say because they're the ones who are going to buy your game and play it."

"So I think if there's a big push for that not being used, we wouldn't intend to make AI models, try to make 3D AI models or something like that.
I feel like that's also just, games are so, there's such a handcrafted experience as well."

"It's like, even in a movie, if a line is slightly wrong or an expression is slightly wrong, immediately that can spoil the entire movie for you.
In a game, it's very similar."

"I feel like if something slightly janky or weird, even the tiniest bit, it can spoil the experience for you.
So I think inevitably there are crafted for gamers to enjoy.
And so I think the use case of AI in games is very isolated from the rest of the world who is wholly embracing it because it is an entertainment product."

"That being said, I feel like we're going to see a lot of projects in the industry that do keep bringing more and more AI on board, but purely AI during games.
I don't know if that's going to be, or very, very high AI usage in games."

"I don't think that's going to be perceived well by players.
So let's bring things back then to Echoes of the End.
A moment ago, you mentioned that 2026 is going to be another big year for the game."

"You've got loads of other things planned for it.
So tell us a little bit, what can we expect from Echoes of the End in 2026?
Yeah, so we, again, our primary kind of thing has been listening, really, and seeing what people are requesting."

"We do read all the comments.
We do read everything that comes out, and we love the engagement that we're getting, and we're super grateful for that engagement as well."

"We're also super grateful people taking a second chance on the game, especially, and the positive surge that we've seen with it.
So we just want to keep showing that we're going to be supporting the game, and that means that we just shipped the patch last week or two weeks ago that was a new armor set for Rin and her main companion, and also photo mode, and some minor quality of life updates and stuff like that."

"And that was a minor update, I would say, compared to the big one we did last time.
But for sure, I think we have ideas on a bigger patch that we want to put out in a couple of months or a few months, and we are..."

"I don't want to unveil exactly what it is, but it's hopefully something that players will find interesting and a good addition to the game.
Do you see, then, a future for the Echoes of the End universe?
Do you have other ideas knocking about that you want to explore down the line?
Yeah, for sure."

"I mean, we've lived with this for so many years.
To the world, it's relatively new, but we lived in this universe now for years, and we love it."

"And we definitely see lots of potential for this universe that we created, and especially if we do a second go of it to take all those lessons learned into the next game and everything and build it completely correct with all the experience that we have, that would be completely amazing, I think."

"But that being said, we haven't talked about the next project yet on our end.
We have already started on the next project, so we are in the very, very early phases of that and not ready to unveil any details just yet."

"But what I can say is definitely, we're not turning into a 4X strategy studio.
We're very much sticking to our DNA here, but it's early days for us to tell exactly where that will end up."

"So as a final question, Holdo, you mentioned it a moment ago that obviously you've got this another big patch for the game rolling around and it's on its way, but when can we actually expect to next hear from Mirko Games?
Yeah, I would say in terms of communications, we try to be really active on all social media, so hopefully if you just comment on one of our TikToks or whatever, we'll get back."

"But in terms of updates, we will try to be as transparent as possible with the updates that are coming.
We're not going to be rolling out a roadmap or anything like that just because we want to be a little more fluid and also because from the lessons learned, we just want to ship things when they're correct or as close as we can with all the variables at play."

"So we don't want to tie ourselves to dates that might just end up biting us in the ass, so to speak.
So I would say in the coming months, we would probably announce that there's something coming and then begin to roll that out."

"But in the interim, we're not going to go radio silent.
We're still going to do the smaller updates and we're still going to do quality of life improvements and bug fixes as they get reported to us and as people are picking up."

"I mean, the game just now entered PlayStation Plus, which we're incredibly proud of because that makes it accessible to millions of players who might have not heard about it or can now give it a go where they haven't before."

"And so we're super excited to see people picking that up and playing the game because ultimately that's what we care about the most.
And then hopefully we'll hear some feedback from them that we can then involve into the game."

"Well, there you have it.
Lots to be excited about for Echoes of the End.
Stay tuned for more and also stay tuned for even more down the line as to what Mirko Games has in store because it looks like it's a very exciting time to be a Mirko Games fan."

"Otherwise, hold on.
Thank you once again for talking with me today.
Maybe we'll recoup again in another year's time and talk once more about what's happening over at Mirko Games."

"Otherwise, though, for more on Echoes of the End, you can find it all on your local Game Rector region.
Thank you for joining me.
We'll see you in the next one."